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WBC Game Chat: Mexico vs. Canada, 5 pm PT
2006-03-09 16:00
by Bob Timmermann

Live from Chase Field! On ESPN Deportes at 11 pm PT and ESPN at midnight PT.

This game is essentially a must win game for both teams despite Canada being 2-0 and Mexico being 1-1. The way the tiebreakers work out, Canada will advance to the second round with a win or a loss where they give up just one or two runs. Mexico advances with a win or a loss paired with an unlikely loss by the US to South Africa on Friday by seven or more runs. If Mexico beats Canada and scores three or more runs, Mexico and the US advance. Another twist is that if the game ends in a tie after 14 innings, Canada moves on to the second round in Anaheim and Mexico would only be able to advance if the U.S. lost to South Africa.

Jeff Francis will start for Canada and Esteban Loaiza will be on the mound for Mexico. Not that the two countries have a big rivalry, but this is the biggest baseball games these two nations have ever played against each other.

Canada has shown it can hit, scoring 19 runs in its first two games. Mexico was shut out by the U.S., but managed 10 runs against South Africa.

If anyone is thinking that somehow Canada will try to play for 1-0 or 2-1 win, I don't think it's likely. It's just too hard to do in baseball. You can't run out the clock.

The FIFA World Cup has had some shady dealings with teams manipulating final scores to gain advantages. One of the ones I remember was at the 1982 World Cup in Spain.

Group 2 had West Germany, Austria, Algeria, and Chile in it. West Germany opened up against Algeria and lost in a stunning 2-1 upset. Austria beat Chile and Austria in its next two matches while West Germany bounced back to rout Chile 4-1 in its next match.

The last matches were set for June 24 and June 25. Algeria played Chile on the 24th and won 3-2. That left the Algerians were four points, but had a goal difference of zero. Austria and West Germany played on the 25th and Austria came in to the match with four points and +3 in goals. West Germany had two points and were +2. So if West Germany were able to beat Austria in a low-scoring match, the two neighbors would be through to the second round and Algeria would be out.

And what was the final result? West Germany 1, Austria 0. Germany scored 10 minutes in to the games and for the next 80 minutes the two sides wandered around the field with a general lack of enthusiasm. The Algerians were perturbed that Austria didn't even appear to try. The press dubbed the game Anschluss 1982. Germany would go on to lose to Italy in the final.

Comments
2006-03-09 17:00:19
1.   Sam DC
This game is essentially a must win game for both teams despite Canada being 2-0 and Mexico being 1-1. The way the tiebreakers work out, Canada will advance to the second round with a win or a loss where they give up just one or two runs. Mexico advances with a win or a loss paired with an unlikely loss by the US to South Africa on Friday by seven or more runs. If Mexico beats Canada and scores three or more runs, Mexico and the US advance. Another twist is that if the game ends in a tie after 14 innings, Canada moves on to the second round in Anaheim and Mexico would only be able to advance if the U.S. lost to South Africa.

I had too dissolute a youth to actually understand this, I'm afraid.

(Kidding, thanks for legging this out.)

2006-03-09 17:05:25
2.   dwatson888
I posted this under "WBC Tie or No Tie" below. Sorry for repeating it here, but I am still mystified by the consensus that a Mexico victory in which the winner scores exactly two runs eliminates the USA. Since (barring extra innings) that would leave the USA and Canada with identical RA/9 in games among the three teams, I do not see how that result necessarily follows. Each team would have given up 8 runs in 18 innings, so in the RA/9 (first) tiebreaker they would be even.

The assumption (explicit in some news stories today) seems to be that the USA would lose out to Canada based on the result of the head-to-head game. But head-to-head is the first tiebreaker; when we apply RA/9 we are already at the second tiebreaker (which we reached because, assuming the USA defeats South Africa, the first tiebreaker does not help decide which two of the three teams with 2-1 records should advance). Having reached the second tiebreaker, and finding two teams (USA and Canada) still tied, why would we go back to the first tiebreaker? It seems to me we should go on to the third tiebreaker (ERA) and if necessary the fourth (BA).

I admit this is somewhat academic, since moving on to the remaining tiebreakers would be unlikely to help the USA. If one or both of Mexico's runs were unearned, Canada would win the ERA tiebreaker. Otherwise that tiebreaker would also be tied, and the final tiebreaker (well, drawing lots is the final tiebreaker, so I should say the fourth tiebreaker) would apply. Since a mere three hits would likely be enough for Canada to best the USA's paltry .231 BA, only a Mexico two-hitter would help the USA. But the assumption that Canada's head-to-head victory over the USA would come into play once the second tiebreaker has been reached still seems wrong to me.

2006-03-09 17:09:34
3.   Brendan
Sam i've been trying to figure it out for 24 hours. I think I have a handle on it now but I didn't get any work done today.

Great post by the way, Bob. I'm going to look up the word Anschluss unless someone here can help me out with the translation.

should I know who Jeff Francis is? seems to me Mexico needs to get the lead early or keep it close to get into the canadian middle relief.

2006-03-09 17:17:04
4.   yankee23
Brendan- Anschluss basically just means connection, but in the sense of Anschluss 1982, they're implying that BRD & Austria worked together to screw Algeria over... which I guess is rather apparent.
2006-03-09 17:17:22
5.   Sam DC
Well, I don't know the particulars, but the Anschlus was the sort-of-peaceful incorporation of Austia into Germany in the late 1930s. The Austrian Nazi party got some if not total power in Austria, and there was a big show of force by Nazi Germany, and they all ended up one big new country.

That then went on to swallow parts of Czechoslovia and then to full-boat invade Poland.

Great times.

2006-03-09 17:18:01
6.   Sam DC
add an l and r in appropriate places up there.
2006-03-09 17:19:19
7.   Brendan
2
I think you are right unless it goes back to the first tie breaker of head to head which might be the case.

With a three way tie, you have the second tie breaker sending Mexico to Anaheim and then you technically go back to a two team tie with USA/Canada and then you revert back to first tie breaker of head to head.

2006-03-09 17:21:10
8.   Brendan
4 &5 thanks, missed that day of history.
2006-03-09 17:24:39
9.   yankee23
... so we're in now, right? I mean, barring a loss to South Africa, of course.
2006-03-09 17:24:56
10.   yankee23
("we" being the USA, that is)
2006-03-09 17:26:03
11.   For The Turnstiles
9-Yeah, that's my understanding
2006-03-09 17:27:05
12.   yankee23
thanks Turnstiles. say, did you end up winning Humbugardy then?
2006-03-09 17:30:48
13.   For The Turnstiles
Yes. No one got the Final Humbugardy question, though.
2006-03-09 17:32:39
14.   yankee23
not all that surprising, really. the Bard really has some clever questions, or answers, rather.
2006-03-09 17:53:24
15.   Sam DC
And so, I guess this is obvious too, but with the 6 so far Mexico runs and assuming a US win over RSA, the winner of this game is in and the loser is out?

Turnstiles -- that Humbugardy performance was impressive indeed (although it somehow doesn't feel right to talk about it on Bob's blog . . .)

2006-03-09 17:56:01
16.   Linkmeister
Sam, I was just gonna ask. 6-0 Mexico in the 3rd.
2006-03-09 18:01:25
17.   regfairfield
I don't understand how the tiebreakers work in the WBC to set up the above scenario. It's not just run differential, can someone explain it to me?
2006-03-09 18:05:37
18.   Linkmeister
Runs allowed, not run differential. And that's as much as I know. Try going to the WBC website:

http://www.worldbaseballclassic.com/2006/

to see if you can find a cogent explanation. ;)

2006-03-09 18:09:13
19.   Brendan
I think it means that USA is in with a win over RSA and it doesn't matter who wins this game.
If Mexico gives up 5 runs or less, USA finishes 2nd in the group. if Mexico give up six or more to Canada and still wins, USA is the group winner.
If Canada comes back to win, USA is second in the group and moving on.
2006-03-09 18:12:07
20.   Brendan
The loser of this game is now out because of the runs needed to win. Seven as a type this....
2006-03-09 18:15:53
21.   Sam DC
18 Bob lits and discusses the tiebreaks a few posts ago. Link's point is key -- the first tiebreak turns on runs allowed against the other teams in the tie.
2006-03-09 18:16:19
22.   Sam DC
18 Bob lists and discusses the tiebreaks a few posts ago. Link's point is key -- the first tiebreak turns on runs allowed against the other teams in the tie.

(tried to catch this before it posted and fix the typo - sorry if it turns out to be a double)

2006-03-09 18:18:20
23.   For The Turnstiles
Most importantly, this means that Bob's original predictions of which 8 teams would advance could all be right.
2006-03-09 18:18:45
24.   dwatson888
Loser is out IF USA defeats SA tomorrow. Canada would advance even with a loss if USA also loses (MEX 2-1, CAN 2-1, USA 1-2, SA 1-2

--David W.

2006-03-09 18:19:37
25.   Bob Timmermann
I didn't exactly go out on a limb. I pretty much took the chalk. But I have Venezuela in the final and I'm thinking that the Dominican Republic team looks to be the class of the tournament.
2006-03-09 18:29:49
26.   yankee23
I agree with Bob, especially with Vlad set to join up with them tomorrow.
2006-03-09 18:33:26
27.   Bob Timmermann
I'm switching over to Venezuela-Australia. That one is just 1-0 in the 5th.
2006-03-09 18:38:21
28.   Bob Timmermann
According to ESPN.com, Vladimir Guerrero has told the Dominican Republic people that he is not going to play for them.
2006-03-09 18:41:19
29.   yankee23
oh, well if I haven't heard it, it's news to me! though i doubt the DR is too worried about it.
2006-03-09 18:45:38
30.   grandcosmo
25. I would say that after only two or three games the jury is still out on who is the class of the tournament.

If we lose to the R.S.A tomorrow I will agree with you though.

2006-03-09 18:48:30
31.   Bob Timmermann
But jumping to conclusions is all I have!
2006-03-09 18:48:59
32.   Linkmeister
Anschluss, from Wikipedia:

http://tinyurl.com/k9egd

2006-03-09 18:53:30
33.   Bob Timmermann
BTW, in the early rounds of the World Cup (as well as the qualifying), the final games of any one group's play are contested simultaneously so shenanigans like what happened in 1982 (and in a different form in 1978) don't happen as often.

I was a bit surprised to see that the final games were staggered since there is a possibility of gaming the system.

2006-03-09 18:55:42
34.   Bob Timmermann
Mexico in a position to end this one early.
2006-03-09 19:09:50
35.   Bob Timmermann
Let's say this game ends 10-0 in 7 innings. And the USA beats RSA (score doesn't matter)

You would have México surrendering 2 runs in 16 innings. The USA would have given up 8 runs in 18 innings. Canada would have given 14 runs in 16 innings.

México wins the group and the US would be #2.

2006-03-09 19:13:28
36.   Bob Timmermann
Except it won't be a shutout as Pete LaForest starts the Canadian comeback with an RBI walk!
2006-03-09 19:28:49
37.   dwatson888
35. Mexico played only 8 defensive innings in the loss to the USA, so a 7 inning mercy win would give 15 innings played, not 16 (same result, though, and of course did not happen). --David W.
2006-03-09 19:44:56
38.   Bob Timmermann
I think I've learned not to count all my runs until the games are over.

Or I understand the rules better.

2006-03-09 20:13:17
39.   Jon Weisman
Loaiza threw 68 pitches according to Gameday. DQ???
2006-03-09 20:18:01
40.   Joe
You can go over the pitch count to finish an at-bat.
2006-03-09 20:21:01
41.   For The Turnstiles
The rules say that a pitcher can finish an AB as long as it started below the limit (65 in this round).
2006-03-09 20:25:11
42.   Joe
Ha ha! After all those times being beaten by a few seconds in Humbugardy by you, I edged you out this time, FTT!! :)
2006-03-09 20:46:48
43.   Brendan
International baseball and its rules are wearing me out.
2006-03-09 20:55:12
44.   Bob Timmermann
I explained the tiebreaker (I think) in a new post up top.

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