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Phenom open thread: Hamels vs. Lincecum, 5 pm PT
2007-05-06 13:17
by Bob Timmermann

It's also the Phillies vs. the Giants at AT&T Park in San Francisco.

The much fabled phenom of 2006, Cole Hamels, face the much fabled phenom of 2007, Tim Lincecum.

There's more potential energy in this game than C.C. Sabathia at the top of a water slide.

If you can't watch the stylings of Miller and Morgan you can follow along on Rob McMillin's Retro Gameday.

Comments (140)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-05-06 13:38:49
1.   Vishal
who would you say came in with the larger legend?
2007-05-06 13:45:06
2.   Bob Timmermann
Cole Hamels had a cooler website, but Lincecum is spoken of in reverential terms and is spoken of in Koufaxian terms.
2007-05-06 13:48:50
3.   underdog
Go Cole! is all I can say.
2007-05-06 13:48:55
4.   Vishal
i'd probably give hamels the nod because of the website... "tim the enchanter" is a catchy nickname though.

on principle though, giants shouldn't be allowed to be compared to the immortal sandy k.

2007-05-06 14:34:00
5.   trainwreck
I liked the Saint Timothy suggestion on
2007-05-06 14:49:11
6.   Andrew Shimmin
What manner of man are you that you can summon up fire without flint or tinder?
2007-05-06 16:03:36
7.   Claire Malone-Evans
Lincecum reminds me of Jonathon Broxton, but he is 140 pounds less heavy.
2007-05-06 16:45:13
8.   das411
Chuck Norris once played 18 holes of golf and shot a 17. He lost to Cole Hamels, who shot a -4.

2007-05-06 16:47:01
9.   ToyCannon
I don't care what Lincecum does, Joey Hamilton is the prospect story of the 21st century. If he takes out a light tower I wouldnt' be shocked.
2007-05-06 16:59:20
10.   Andrew Shimmin
After scouring The Google, I'm prepared to guess you mean Josh Hamilton.
2007-05-06 16:59:55
11.   D4P
Bottom line: John Kruk was not meant to wear a suit
2007-05-06 17:01:56
12.   alexx
I'm excited. Am I destined for a letdown?
2007-05-06 17:02:26
13.   alexx
Barry Bonds isn't even starting. Why all this hullabaloo?
2007-05-06 17:03:23
14.   FirstMohican
Was it Kruk that said Adam Ethier? (And also suggested that he and Pierre were responsible for a porous defense?)
2007-05-06 17:04:41
15.   FirstMohican
Wow Lincecum looks like a little leaguer.
2007-05-06 17:06:03
16.   das411
Cole Hamels is so inspiring, that on days he pitches Pat Burrell only strikes out twice.
2007-05-06 17:10:50
17.   FirstMohican
2007-05-06 17:11:12
18.   Andrew Shimmin
It's the SF gun, but he's 96-97-96-95 in the first AB. Not too shabby.
2007-05-06 17:11:57
19.   Vishal
lincecum has a career WHIP of infinity :)
2007-05-06 17:12:23
20.   das411
Yes his windup definitely looks like Kevin Brown to me, except maybe 5 inches and 50 pounds smaller...
2007-05-06 17:13:15
21.   Vishal
ERA, too.
2007-05-06 17:13:59
22.   das411
And Shane-O trying to hit one to Hawaii, good start Phils!
2007-05-06 17:14:14
23.   Andrew Shimmin
Yeah, Joe Morgan. It was the wind. The wind is probably what made the ball go directly down the middle, belt high, too.
2007-05-06 17:14:29
24.   bhsportsguy
Utley strikes out 1 out of 6 times at bat.
2007-05-06 17:15:41
25.   bhsportsguy
23 Hey, he said he thought it was just going over the outfielder's head, he just did not say that he thought it was going over the wall.
2007-05-06 17:15:51
26.   Andrew Shimmin
Bhsportsguy is a soothsayer.
2007-05-06 17:16:23
27.   bhsportsguy
Howard strikes out 2 out of 5 times at bat.
2007-05-06 17:16:26
28.   alexx
I'm torn. I have Lincecum, Hamels, and Victorino on my fantasy team...
2007-05-06 17:17:38
29.   bhsportsguy
I think it will be sometime before he throws an off-speed pitch with two strikes on the batter.
2007-05-06 17:18:31
30.   das411
2007 Ryan Howard seems like he strikes out about 4 of every 5 times at bat...the bum...
2007-05-06 17:18:33
31.   bhsportsguy
Burrell strikes out 1 out of 4 times at bat.
2007-05-06 17:19:17
32.   Vishal
[30] yeah, maybe they can trade him to the yankees for nothing too :P
2007-05-06 17:19:46
33.   bhsportsguy
30 38 times in 92 at bats (120 plate appearances with his 28 walks)
2007-05-06 17:19:52
34.   alexx
It looks like his fastball has a bit of two seam movement.
2007-05-06 17:20:54
35.   natepurcell
Lincecum should be a dodger!
2007-05-06 17:21:11
36.   das411
Do the Giants just have a full set of scoreboard letters for when they change the name of the ballpark every other year?

Here comes COLE!!

2007-05-06 17:21:20
37.   bhsportsguy
Rowand was also a 1 out of 6 at bat strike out guy.
2007-05-06 17:21:53
38.   bhsportsguy
35 Instead of Kershaw?
2007-05-06 17:22:09
39.   alexx
Is there any chance Kershaw will be better than Lincecum? I guess it's hard to say?
2007-05-06 17:23:01
40.   das411
Cole Hamels loves freedom and democracy so much that he gets offended when people call him King Cole.
2007-05-06 17:23:17
41.   natepurcell

i dont know, im torn. what i do know is that the giants should had no chance to even sniff lincecum at 10.

2007-05-06 17:24:12
42.   alexx
I didn't realize Hamels only throws upper 80's.
2007-05-06 17:24:51
43.   bhsportsguy
39 There's a pretty good chance he won't give up a homer to the second batter he faces, other than that, you'll have to check in 2009 (maybe late 2008, if Kershaw somehow makes AA this year)
2007-05-06 17:25:22
44.   natepurcell

Hamels is like a better Randy Wolf and instead of a curve its a change up.

2007-05-06 17:26:18
45.   natepurcell
This is so hard to root for Lincecum since he is a Giant.
2007-05-06 17:26:30
46.   das411
Cole Hamels' fastball actually goes 4,102 MPH, but the radar gun can only hold the last three digits.
2007-05-06 17:26:38
47.   Vishal
[42] his FB is low 90s i thought.
2007-05-06 17:27:27
48.   Vishal
[46] i thought his fastball is so fast that it actually gets there before hamels even lets go.
2007-05-06 17:27:54
49.   Bob Timmermann
Hamels last pitch was 92.
2007-05-06 17:28:38
50.   natepurcell
except for the head tilt, i really like lincecum's delivery.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-05-06 17:28:48
51.   Vishal
joe morgan can barely speak in a complete sentence anymore. he's so bad.
2007-05-06 17:28:55
52.   das411
Was Bochy's goatee that grey before he took the job managing the San Francisco BarryBondses?
2007-05-06 17:29:13
53.   natepurcell

you mean, 4,092 mph

2007-05-06 17:30:22
54.   alexx
Oh yeah, he's been hitting 92 on the gun. Hamels looks like a sterotypical bro from San Diego. I don't mind rooting for Lincecum because I don't think the Giants are going to be competition in a couple of months.
2007-05-06 17:30:46
55.   D4P
You mean Hamels'. Or Hamels's.
2007-05-06 17:31:34
56.   natepurcell
2007-05-06 17:32:05
57.   bhsportsguy
41 Although Baseball America had Lincecum as their second rated college player, their mock drafts had him going after 10.

Jim Callis did say after the Giants took Lincecum that they kept their analysis close to the vest so it was not surprising they took him although the players that he projected for them were also available.

Kershaw was projected to go to either the Dodgers at 7 or the Tigers at 6 and he was the first high school player expected to be picked.

2007-05-06 17:32:31
58.   Bob Timmermann
Bochy didn't wear a goatee in San Diego I believe. Just a mustache and he shaved that off at times.
2007-05-06 17:32:56
59.   alexx
Quick, trade Sabean a veteran for Lincecum while his ERA is 18.
2007-05-06 17:33:02
60.   Benjamin Kabak
56 Dude, they just met up with the Rohirrim. Helms Deep isn't for another two hours.

Yes, I'm watching ESPN and TBS at the same time.

2007-05-06 17:34:28
61.   das411
54 - Jesus has a t-shirt that says, "Cole Hamels is my homeboy."
2007-05-06 17:35:20
62.   bhsportsguy
58 Does a goatee make your head look smaller?
2007-05-06 17:38:54
63.   D4P
Cole Hamels kinda reminds me of Von Hayes
2007-05-06 17:38:58
64.   natepurcell
everyone watch out, Jon Miller just did the math...
2007-05-06 17:40:51
65.   alexx
I find the preponderance of erectile dysfunction commercials disturbing and sexist. I'm just saying.
2007-05-06 17:42:04
66.   das411
Cole is prone to the occasional back spasm..............but only when Atlas is on a coffee break.
2007-05-06 17:44:06
67.   D4P
Lincecum bats LH...? Bad idea.
2007-05-06 17:44:41
68.   Bob Timmermann
Apparently it doesn't matter which side Lincecum bats from.
2007-05-06 17:46:33
69.   D4P
Apparently it doesn't matter which side Lincecum bats from

I'm just thinking about his right arm being exposed to the pitcher.

2007-05-06 17:47:44
70.   D4P
There's No Such Thing As A Pitching Phenom
2007-05-06 17:49:22
71.   das411
Cole Hamels does not throw a change up or a curve; he simply throws his fastball and alters spacetime accordingly.
2007-05-06 17:49:36
72.   Vishal
did you know that? according to joe morgan, "a left-hander has a higher leg kick".
2007-05-06 17:53:25
73.   Vishal
[65] sexist? the content of the ads or the idea of them?
2007-05-06 17:57:22
74.   das411

Only about, what, 680 behind Mr. Bonds now...that one was definitely a pretty sight to see though!

2007-05-06 18:00:31
75.   Bob Timmermann
Lincecum's next start should be at Coors Field, so he better be careful.
2007-05-06 18:03:41
76.   natepurcell
sickels blog has been bombared with lincecum threads.
2007-05-06 18:04:12
77.   natepurcell
2007-05-06 18:11:53
78.   natepurcell
his curveball hasnt been as advertised.
2007-05-06 18:12:26
79.   Benjamin Kabak
Joe Morgan just said that Barry Bonds himself conducted the poll they're talking about. Brilliant.
2007-05-06 18:14:15
80.   alexx
73 The idea. I feel like there's a lot of pressure put on aging men to maintain some sort of Hugh Hefner level of virility; if they don't they're cast as defective when obviously it's biologically natural for the sex drive to wane. Granted, I'm only 21 so maybe I'm misunderstanding the issue.
2007-05-06 18:15:28
81.   alexx
Why is Joe Morgan on TV? That poll was interesting, though.. I would imagine the OJ case had similarly racially skewed poll results.
2007-05-06 18:15:35
82.   CanuckDodger
By the third inning, Lincecum had already lost velocity, pitching at 93-94 MPH instead of 96-97, like he was in the first inning. Nothing wrong with 93-94, mind you, but the tiny body does have a consequence. And Lincecum's secondary stuff is not what it was made out to be. Lincecum is about a month older than Billingsley, and I know that if both pitchers were free agents, I would take Billingsley over Lincecum any day of the week.
2007-05-06 18:17:10
83.   Humma Kavula
Not sure who I'm listening to over MLB radio, but they just said that Jimmy Rollins was the second-best hitter in the National League this year, after Bonds.
2007-05-06 18:17:20
84.   natepurcell

those 92-94 fbs are 2 seamers though with wicked movement to them.

2007-05-06 18:18:55
85.   Vishal
[80] i think they aren't putting pressure so much as capitalizing on a segment of men who want to have more sex but whose bodies are holding them back. perhaps you could argue that when the equipment stops working you should just accept it and not worry about sex anymore, but depending on how old you are when it happens, it may not be that easy to accept.
2007-05-06 18:19:08
86.   Ken Arneson
My six-year-old daughter, playing with her Legos in our TV room, just said, "How come they're talking so much during this game? Talk, talk, talk, and they're not even talking about the game."
2007-05-06 18:21:04
87.   Bob Timmermann
At least she hasn't asked you what "ED" stands for.

But I would have something made up to use just in case.

Earnest Dinosaur is my choice.

2007-05-06 18:24:00
88.   Bob Timmermann
I did not locate a similar poll about Aaron and Ruth done in 1973 or 1974 in the New York Times or LA Times.

From my recollection, there were a lot of people who didn't want Aaron to break Ruth's record, but they were almost all portrayed as racists. The Bonds/Aaron dispute is a little different, although Aaron probably finds all of this respect shown him by the media to be somewhat unusual.

2007-05-06 18:24:01
89.   Ken Arneson
87 Try again. If she can call BS on Joe Morgan's blathering, she can certainly see through "Earnest Dinosaur".
2007-05-06 18:24:15
90.   Vishal
dinosaurs would seemingly pique the interest of a six year old, no?
2007-05-06 18:24:23
91.   alexx
Hmm that's a good point. I guess I just feel like the "ED" commercials should be more subtle. Or limited to late at night.
2007-05-06 18:25:08
92.   Vishal
i suggest something bland like "extended difficulty".
2007-05-06 18:25:41
93.   Bob Timmermann
Embarrassing disorder?
2007-05-06 18:26:14
94.   natepurcell
Eygptian Diety!
2007-05-06 18:27:56
95.   D4P
Eric Davis?
2007-05-06 18:30:06
96.   Bob Timmermann
I wonder if Lincecum knows how to slide. He didn't seem to eager to run down to second.
2007-05-06 18:34:09
97.   Vishal
lincecum's fastball is down to 90-91 now
2007-05-06 18:34:41
98.   Bob Timmermann
Am I the only person bothered by the fact that "McCovey Cove" is not a cove? It's not even remotely like a cove.
2007-05-06 18:36:34
99.   das411
Damn and that is why they call him the Flyin' Hawaiian!
2007-05-06 18:36:56
100.   Bob Timmermann
Chalk up an error for Vizquel. I think that should be a CS 1-3-E6. But it's going to make the official scorer work a bit.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-05-06 18:37:37
101.   Vishal
hahahahahah that was great.
2007-05-06 18:37:56
102.   Eric Enders
The umps sure screwed up that call beyond belief.
2007-05-06 18:38:50
103.   Ken Arneson
Can't we score that one E-ump? That was a ridiculously bad call.
2007-05-06 18:39:39
104.   overkill94
100 The Yahoo scorer took the easy way out: "S. Victorino to second"
2007-05-06 18:42:01
105.   Bob Timmermann
That was Gameday's scoring as well. They don't have an error up for Vizquel, but he has to get one.
2007-05-06 18:42:05
106.   Eric Enders
104 Well, at least they didn't say it was Chase Utley.
2007-05-06 18:42:20
107.   Vishal
[98] it's remotely like one... just with a water channel cut out the back.
2007-05-06 18:42:45
108.   das411
Grrr when did Pat Burrell turn into Bobby Abreu???
2007-05-06 18:43:23
109.   Eric Enders
I think Bob should add another topic to his list of windmills to tilt at: undeserved errors. You can start with Vizquel and, yesterday, Andruw Jones.
2007-05-06 18:44:25
110.   Eric Enders
89 If she is already using the term BS, then hearing ED is probably the least of your worries.
2007-05-06 18:44:32
111.   bhsportsguy
Here is a 2006 First Round update, tell me who should have picked Lincecum.

1. KC Luke Hochevar rhp $3,500,000 (Bonus)
2. CO Greg Reynolds rhp $3,250,000
3. TB Evan Longoria 3b $3,000,000
4. PI Brad Lincoln rhp $2,750,000
5. SE Brandon Morrow rhp $2,450,000
6. DT Andrew Miller lhp $3,550,000
7. LA Clayton Kershaw lhp $2,300,000
8. CIN Drew Stubbs of $2,000,000
9. BA Bill Rowell 3b $2,100,000
10. SF Tim Lincecum rhp $2,025,000

Hochevar, Reynolds, Longoria are in AA, Lincoln had "Tommy John" surgery in April 2007(note that Pittsburgh GM said this may mean that for the Pirates, they may not draft pitchers in the first round anymore).

Morrow is in Seattle, Miller is in High A ball, Kershaw and Stubbs are both in Low A in the Midwest League and Rowell is in extended spring training waiting for the short season Rookie Leagues to start in June.

Miller did get a taste of the Big club last fall and Lincecum joins Morrow as being part of their big league parent.

Hochevar, Longoria, Miller and Kershaw are picks that I don't think anyone would argue against their teams making before Lincecum but the others, hmmm.

Nate and anyone other draft guys, what do you think?

2007-05-06 18:46:14
112.   Eric Enders
If the draft were held today I'm guessing it would go:
1. Lincecum
2. Longoria
3. Kershaw
4. ?
5. ?
6. Hochevar
2007-05-06 18:48:38
113.   bhsportsguy
Oh, oh, here comes Joe Morgan's analysis of how to be a successful pitcher, his qualifications are ????
2007-05-06 18:54:19
114.   das411
Alright Charlie, will you PLEASE swap Shane and ArRow in CF and RF now??
2007-05-06 18:54:42
115.   CanuckDodger
Tiny Tim steadily lost velocity throughout the game, and I never once saw a secondary offering that impressed me. For all the hype we have been hearing about Lincecum, I was wondering why nine teams, including the Dodgers, passed on him in the draft, but now it is pretty clear why. He might even be better suited to be a reliever than a starter, given how much velocity he loses, and that body is not going to get bigger. In last year's draft some teams took some players they shouldn't have over Lincecum (Drew Stubbs, by the Reds, for crying out loud), but no way would I have wanted Lincecum over Kershaw. Logan White was not remiss.
2007-05-06 18:56:01
116.   ToyCannon
I'd rather have Lincecum then Hochevar, Reynolds, Lincoln, Morrow, and Stubbs.

Nate is right, the Giants never should have sniffed him. I think it would have been awesome if Hochevar had ended up a Giant so he could fire up the dying rivalry.

Victorino is quickly becoming one of my favorite players. Those who thought he was only 4th outfielder material might be having 2nd thoughts this week.

2007-05-06 18:57:19
117.   Eric Enders
116 When exactly did the Dodgers-Giants rivalry start dying?
2007-05-06 18:58:03
118.   ToyCannon
How can you make comments like that when Billingsley struck out as many as he walked last year over 90 innings and yet you still think he has a great future. This was his 1st start, I think I'd watch a few more games before making declarations like that.
2007-05-06 18:59:29
119.   Bob Timmermann
Think of Hughes's first start for the Yankees.

Now think of his second one.

2007-05-06 19:01:32
120.   ToyCannon
When Willie Mays was traded to the Mets and Juan Marichal pitched for the Dodgers.
2007-05-06 19:02:24
121.   JoeyP
Lincecum dominated the PCL way more than Billingsley did.

Its way to early on either pitcher, but if you're going by their past performance: Its Lincecum easily.

2007-05-06 19:04:45
122.   das411
Does it bother anybody else to see somebody wearing Robb Nen's 31 who is not a grizzled and one-armed Robb Nen?
2007-05-06 19:06:05
123.   Bob Timmermann
So Vinnie Chulk should be tapping his foot before he throws home?
2007-05-06 19:07:31
124.   bhsportsguy
11 ARI Max Scherzer rhp
12 TEX Kasey Kiker lhp
13 CHC Tyler Colvin of
14 TOR Travis Snider of
15 WAS Chris Marrero 3b
16 MIL Jeremy Jeffress rhp
17 SD Matt Antonelli 3b
18 PHI Kyle Drabek rhp/ss
19 FLA Brett Sinkbeil rhp
20 MIN Chris Parmelee of/1b
21 NYY Ian Kennedy rhp
22 WAS Colton Willems rhp
23 HOU Max Sapp c
24 ATL Cody Johnson 1b
25 LAA Hank Conger c
26 LAD Bryan Morris rhp
27 BOS Jason Place of
28 BOS Daniel Bard rhp
29 CWS Kyle McCulloch rhp
30 STL Adam Ottavino rhp

Max Scherzer remains unsigned and Boras thinks that he will be available in the 2007 draft. Morris had TJ surgery and Bard just got put on the DL.

2007-05-06 19:09:08
125.   bhsportsguy
120 Did you get my email?
2007-05-06 19:10:44
126.   das411
Sure, and he needs the badass goatee too, especially if it will keep people like Jimmy Rollins from tripling off of him like that!

Did anybody else hear them mention that aircraft carrier across the bay in Alameda and immediately think of Star Trek IV?

2007-05-06 19:15:35
127.   Bob Timmermann
I saw Star Trek IV and I have no idea what you're referring to.
2007-05-06 19:20:39
128.   bhsportsguy
127 Starfleet Headquarters was in San Francisco and they had that scene when the Klingon Bird of Prey flew under the Golden Gate Bridge before splashing into the bay.

BTW, my impression has always been that the bay is very cold but I guess not cold enough to bother the crew of the Enterprise.

2007-05-06 19:21:05
129.   CanuckDodger
118 -- I don't think the earliest MLB numbers are important, for any prospect. Most players get off to rough starts in the majors, and Billingsley debuted in his age 21 season while Lincecum is in his age 23 season. I don't hold the runs Lincecum gave up tonight against him, because it is not about the line in the boxscore at this stage. I am talking about scouting, future projection, and that means looking at tools and physicality. Billingsley has the pitching frame of a horse, Lincecum that of a pre-pubescent girl (a bit of hyperbole, but you get my drift). Billingsley has two plus breaking pitches, while Lincecum's curve does nothing for me. The velocity I saw from Billingsley on friday and today is better than what he ever showed in the majors last year, and you may say that is because he is in the bullpen, but as a starter in the minors Billingsley was always in the 92-96 range. Everybody makes a big deal about Billingsley's K:BB ratio last year in the majors, but I didn't care about that nearly as much as I did the fact that his fastball velocity was more like 89-93 than 92-96. This spring Billingsley said he had a "dead arm" in the majors last year, so with that explanation the only thing I was worried about is removed.
2007-05-06 19:22:19
130.   das411
And Chekov spends several minutes asking around to find the "nuclear wessels" that turn out to be where...?

2007-05-06 19:24:35
131.   CanuckDodger
121 -- Billingsley has never pitched in the PCL at as old an age as Lincecum. I know you have said you don't care about age differences, but they make all the difference in comparing stats, and sabermetricians acknowledge that. And what was Linceum's home park in Fresno is very pitcher-friendly compared to Vegas.
2007-05-06 19:29:26
132.   das411
Ahhh Mike Bourn, the poor man's Juan Pierre?
2007-05-06 19:35:40
133.   Uncle Miltie
I remember being really intrigued by Michael Bourn when he was in the minors. He doesn't have much power, but has outstanding plate discipline. I'd love to see what we could do with 500 major league at bats. I'd definitely take him over Pierre (though defensively he profiles better in left field).
2007-05-06 19:40:38
134.   natepurcell

hes probably better then pier one.

2007-05-06 19:44:45
135.   das411
and that, my friends, is why we <3 Cole Hamels!
2007-05-06 20:13:42
136.   natepurcell
the Phillies need Brett Tomko. how about a tomko and pierre for Rowand swap?
2007-05-06 20:22:16
137.   das411 about a Tomko and [Betemit] for ArRow swap Nate? ;)
2007-05-06 20:27:35
138.   Vishal
[132] unfortunately, juan pierre is the rich man's juan pierre.
2007-05-06 20:34:03
139.   natepurcell

teams picking 1-9 should have all picked lincecum :)

2007-05-06 21:21:49
140.   underdog
111 Belated reaction but after staring at that list more, the one team that really stands out to me as having made a mistake not drafting Lincecum (or Miller or Kershaw, or the other pitchers picked after) is Tampa Bay. Not a knock on Longoria, who I think is going to be great, but for a team so rich with young position players/prospects and so pitching poor it seems unfathomable they wouldn't have looked for a pitcher. That's just my opinion, and it's hard to feel bad about having Longoria in your system, but I really think not taking one of those superb pitchers was a mistake.

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